Beeson Podcast, Episode #579 Dr. Josh Reeves Dec. 14, 2021 >>Announcer: Welcome to the Beeson podcast, coming to you from Beeson Divinity School on the campus of 色虎视频. Now your hosts, Doug Sweeney and Kristen Padilla. >>Doug Sweeney: Welcome to the Beeson Podcast. I鈥檓 your host, Doug Sweeney, here with my co-host, Kristen Padilla. We are delighted to welcome a cherished Beeson alumnus and good friend to the podcast studio today. We鈥檒l ask him about an exciting conference we鈥檙e co-hosting with him about his excellent new book published by Baylor University Press, whose new director by the way is another Beeson alumnus. Most importantly of all, we鈥檒l ask him about his ongoing research at the intersection of science and religion. Kristen, what do you say? Let鈥檚 dive right in. Will you please tell us more about today鈥檚 special guest and get our conversation started? >>Kristen Padilla: Hi, everyone. Welcome to the podcast. We have with us in the studio today, Dr. Josh Reeves. Dr. Reeves is Assistant Professor Science and Religion at 色虎视频鈥檚 Howard College of Arts and Sciences, Biblical and Religious Studies Department. In that role he also is the Director of 色虎视频鈥檚 Center for Science and Religion. Dr. Reeves is the author or co-author of three books, including his newest book which Doug referenced, 鈥淩edeeming Expertise: Scientific Trust in the Future of the Church.鈥 And Josh was elected to the International Society for Science and Religion in 2020. Josh is a graduate of 色虎视频, Beeson Divinity School, the University of Cambridge, and Boston University. Welcome, Dr. Reeves, to the Beeson Podcast. >>Dr. Reeves: It鈥檚 very good to be here. >>Kristen Padilla: Well, I gave an impressive bio to our listeners, but we always like to being knowing a little bit more personal information about you. So, can you introduce yourself to our listeners? Who you are? Where you鈥檙e from? And a little bit about what you do here at 色虎视频? >>Dr. Reeves: Sure. Well, you said my name is Josh. I grew up in Florida, central Florida, and so I am a native Floridian. But I鈥檝e been in Alabama most of my life now. So, I鈥檝e over half of my life been in Alabama, which it feels weird to actually say that when you kind of count out the numbers. So, I originally graduated from 色虎视频, graduated from Beeson, and so it鈥檚 just such a great pleasure to be back here at 色虎视频. It鈥檚 a place that I have so much fun, so much investment in, and has invested in me in so many ways. So, it鈥檚 great to be here. My wife graduated from here. She鈥檚 a nurse practitioner here in town and I have two young teenagers, two girls. >>Doug Sweeney: You have a pretty fascinating career thus far, Josh. Even though academics are used to having guys like you around, probably not many of our listeners know how special your role is here at the university. Tell us a little bit about your academic career so far. Tell us how it鈥檚 included both study in theology and in science and how does somebody like you get to be an expert with a job where you鈥檙e asked to talk about the intersection of science and religion, science and theology so consistently. >>Dr. Reeves: I think my academic career has been really guided by my own kind of spiritual journey. I grew up in a Christian household. My family was a little bit of a spiritual seeker, at least my mom was, and so we moved around different denominations which naturally created a lot of theological questions. But I remember very vividly coming to 色虎视频 thinking, 鈥淚鈥檓 going to understand human nature.鈥 So, I studied psychology, I was going to be a psychologist. But we have a very good psychology program here at 色虎视频 and because of that it actually is quite limited in the kind of questions that it can answer. It can tell me very definitively about mice in cages going after cheese and operate conditioning and those sorts of things. But kind of the deep questions I had about human nature were not being addressed in those classrooms. So, over time I moved over to theology and started thinking about theology and philosophy and what it means to be human. After graduating from 色虎视频 I wanted to keep pursuing theology and so I enrolled here at Beeson. When I was done with Beeson I didn鈥檛 feel the call to pastoral ministry. I thought teaching in some capacity at some level would be in my future. And so I still had questions of how to put together the psychology and the theology, how to put them together. And so I eventually found my way to the University of Cambridge in England. And they had a Psychology of Religion program. Which allowed me to kind of really think more deeply about those sorts of issues. And then from there I enrolled in kind of a science/religion program in my doctorate to kind of think more broadly about how science and religion, or in my case, really theology and science is what I鈥檓 interested in 鈥 how they interact with each other. And so from there I just have pursued my own intellectual questions. And I have found that certain place like 色虎视频 have need for people like me. Because we have great science facilities here, if you come to 色虎视频. There鈥檚 Propst Hall, there鈥檚 really great scientists doing good work here. But we鈥檙e a Christian university and we are going to teach the bible to our undergraduates and we鈥檙e going to really try to have spiritual formation for our students. So, questions naturally arise. So, that creates kind of a role for people like me to come, not to answer people鈥檚 questions, because I don鈥檛 ... I鈥檓 not a scientist. I can鈥檛 answer definitively how to answer certain problems, but I can be a conversation helper. So, that鈥檚 kind of the way I think about my role. I try to help students and faculty think about options and to have conversations with each other, and to kind of enrich our thoughts about particular issues. And so I鈥檝e been really blessed to be here at 色虎视频. >>Kristen Padilla: For many Christians in the pew science and religion are seen at odds with one another. In your newest book, 鈥淩edeeming Expertise,鈥 you offer sympathetic account as to why many conservative Christians are skeptical toward mainstream science. You then propose a uniquely Christian defense of taking scientific expertise seriously. So, why have conservative Christians been prone to distrust science? And how do you propose Christians move forward in relation to science? >>Dr. Reeves: I think really the issue as I see it, as I kind of argued in the book, is that science today is so complicated, it is so done in specialized centers that we who are not scientists can鈥檛 really see for ourselves what鈥檚 going on there. And so all of our scientific knowledge comes on trust. When I talk about things that I believe in, like atoms and molecules and black holes, I don鈥檛 have any ability to verify if those actually exist in the world. I take that knowledge secondhand from other people. And so that鈥檚 kind of our intellectual situation that we find ourselves. And in our modem moment where there鈥檚 a lot of cultural polarization going on, there鈥檚 natural worries that people have that maybe this knowledge is tainted by naturalism in some way; that people who don鈥檛 share my values, who don鈥檛 share my theology, are kind of thinking about the work differently. Or maybe it鈥檚 infected by politics in some ways, who don鈥檛 share my values as well. And so there鈥檚 natural skepticism that arises that maybe I don鈥檛 have to trust certain conclusions that scientists raise. And so in the book I鈥檓 not really addressing any particular scientific issue because I鈥檓 not a scientist, but I think I want to take a step back and just think about how do we think about expertise? Does it play a role in our life? How do we assess what a good expert is, versus a non good expert? If you don鈥檛 have that knowledge to assess or do the actual science? So, that鈥檚 kind of the things I was thinking about. The conclusion that I drew is that we need experts. The question is not whether to trust experts, it鈥檚 which experts do you trust? We all need experts in our lives. And so the question is, how do we discern them? How do we find good ones? And that will require discernment about what science can deliver and what science can鈥檛 deliver in terms of ultimate answers about the world. And I also argue towards the end of the book that we need a stronger church response. We need more Christians in the science seeing what鈥檚 going on there and kind of having inside knowledge about what is going on in the science. We need institutions that kind of help argue and kind of sift through all the different information that comes in to see what鈥檚 valuable and what鈥檚 not valuable. And we need people in the pew to have trust in these Christian institutions to do good work. And so I think there鈥檚 a role for everybody in thinking about the problem and how do we get good information to people in the pew and to pastors and to other scientists and how do we avoid some of the problems that we encounter in determining what is good knowledge? >>Doug Sweeney: It seems like there鈥檚 been a lot of conversation, even in the last couple of years, among culture warriors about elitism. And I think probably it鈥檚 fair to say most regular people in the world, maybe especially most regular people in the United States, maybe most especially of all most evangelical Christians in the United States have a little bit of an allergy to elitism. Help us out with that. Can we people who trust more helpfully, more thoughtfully, for the benefit of the church, for the benefit of the kingdom of God in expertise without having to worry too much about becoming snooty elitists? >>Dr. Reeves: I mean, there鈥檚 definitely a worry. When you are in academia long enough and the university long enough you see people who perhaps are puffed up a little bit too much about their own knowledge and overconfident in the sort of things that they know. But I think we need to make a distinction, I argue in the book, between ... Everybody has a right to think for themselves. I think God has given us gifts to think for ourselves. But we all have different gifts. And so Paul argues that some are the ears, some are the hands, and so if that is true in the church I think it鈥檚 also true in society 鈥 that we need other people who have different sort of gifts than I do. And if we have extreme mistrust then the body won鈥檛 work. We won鈥檛 be able to communicate and use our gifts to mutually help each other. And so I think there is some worry about elitism, but I don鈥檛 think that should throw out the principle that we need other people to know well about what is true and good in our world. >>Kristen Padilla: Josh, I would love for you to tell our listeners about the Center for Science and Religion, which you direct. What is its purpose and mission? Can you tell us anything about some of the things that you are doing these days? >>Dr. Reeves: So, it goes back a long way on campus, actually. It was started around 2000 by four different professors who ... One was like a biologist, one was computer science, different disciplines, but they were devout Christians and they wanted to know more how to think about the relationship between their own faith and science. And so they started a book group and that slowly after five or six years turned into, 鈥淲ell, maybe we should do a center. Maybe we could have something more formally on campus.鈥 And they were able to establish that and apply for some large grants. And one of the grants they got. So, they called me to come administer the grant. So, that鈥檚 really how I came to campus in 2014. And so the center has different responsibilities. Oftentimes we鈥檙e called into different classes to talk about certain issues that maybe a professor is dealing with an issue, but they don鈥檛 have any special knowledge or any special experience talking about that issue, but that it needs to be addressed. We often are called in to talk about these interdisciplinary problems between theology and science or between theology and philosophy. And so that鈥檚 one thing that we do. We apply for grants to help our faculty, especially to connect with the wider world. So, we would not help on a science only grant but we often help with faith and science grants. That鈥檚 really what we want to equip our faculty here to kind of think more deeply about their own work from a Christian perspective. We have student groups. We basically, if there鈥檚 a conversation about theology and science on campus we try to be involved in some way, I think is a good way to think about what we do. >>Doug Sweeney: Josh, does your center recommend resources for the kinds of people who are listening to us right now who are persuaded by you that they need to learn more about what the real experts in science are saying but are worried they don鈥檛 want to read people who are anti Christian all the time. They鈥檇 like to have a healthy way of maintaining a traditional Christian faith and just making it more learned and more thoughtful and more aware of what the scientists are saying. Are there some resources that you could recommend to Beeson Podcast listeners? Thoughtful, traditional, Christians who want to do better in your area. >>Dr. Reeves: Well, one of the problems that you face is that science is so huge and theology is so huge. And so when you zoom out from a large level, you can make very large generalizations that may not apply to your own particular denomination, your particular issues in science that you want to deal with. So, that鈥檚 one problem that I encounter a lot. If you鈥檙e going to think generally I tend to like using in my own classes the work by Alistair McGrath who is the professor of theology and science at Oxford. He鈥檚 an evangelical Christian. He has a real gift for breaking down complex science and complex theology into ways that you can wrap your mind around. As a general principle I kind of recommend McGrath鈥檚 work. For particular issues, it really depends on the issue that you want to deal with. So, I try to look to Christian universities to find folks who have special knowledge but work in an explicitly Christian environment. That鈥檚 how I generally tend to think about finding good works. But in general I think if you are trying to, as a pastor, help your congregation discern between good knowledge and the limits of science, there鈥檚 two books that I鈥檝e read recently that have really stuck with me in terms of the kind of work that you think about weeks later, about the analogies and the arguments that are made. The first one is, 鈥淕od in the Dock,鈥 by CS Lewis. I think he has a number of really wonderful science and faith essays in that work that kind of help Christians think about the relationship of science and faith. He has such a sharp mind, obviously, and such powerful analogies in there. So, I really would recommend that just in general about ... CS Lewis is really good about talking about the limits of science in terms of the kind of questions it can鈥檛 answer. One work that I鈥檝e been reading recently, I haven鈥檛 finished it all, so hopefully it鈥檚 a good recommendation, but Roger Scruton who wrote, 鈥淭he Soul Of The World.鈥 And the reason why I recommend it is that he does a really wonderful job, it was the Gifford Lectures, but he is trying to argue for people, or lay out for people that when you try to use only scientific language for human concepts like the mind and stuff, it just doesn鈥檛 work. I think even CS Lewis says in 鈥淕od in the Dock,鈥 it鈥檚 one thing to understand your organs of your body naturalistically, but when you try to understand the mind naturalistically the whole enterprise of science collapses in on itself, because it just can鈥檛 explain why we want to do, why we desire what we do, and I think Scruton makes the same sort of argument saying there鈥檚 a whole world of human experience where we promise, where we love, and these sort of things can鈥檛 be reduced to any sort of pure chemical picture that many people think a scientific picture should look like. I found that to be a really powerful way to talk about the sort of things that science is good at describing and then the sort of thing ... especially with respect to human nature that science really struggles to describe well. >>Kristen Padilla: Next month in January the dates are January 13-15 you are spearheading a conference at 色虎视频 called 鈥淎lone in the Cosmos: Theological, Anthropology for a Scientific Age.鈥 We would love some of our listeners to come to this conference. So, I wonder if you could just tell us what it鈥檚 about, what attendees can expect to receive, and any details as it relates to registration. >>Dr. Reeves: The Creation Project is the ultimate kind of originator of the idea of the conference. It鈥檚 a project located at the Henry Center at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School. They got a large grant from the Templeton Foundation to help evangelicals think more theologically about science, about nature, about creation. How can they approach those subjects from a distinctly evangelical view, but also kind of think about sort of the problems that science seems to raise for some sorts of theological questions. And so that鈥檚 the work they鈥檝e been doing for the last five years. And as part of that, they asked Beeson to have a faculty reading group. And through the last three years we鈥檝e been reading these works. I think through that relationship they asked us to hold a conference on the role ... I think the subject is theological anthropology, which basically is asking how do we reconcile a theological commitment that we in some ways are stewards of creation that God has given a special role to us as humans to kind of a scientific picture which lately has tended to really emphasize that we share similarities with other animals. So, there鈥檚 a lot of things that we used to think were distinctly human, like tool use, that scientists looking at nature say, 鈥淲ell, wow, creation is much more amazing than we realize. Animals can do so much more than we thought.鈥 And so the question is how do we bring those two differing perspectives, differing intuitions into conversation with each other? So, we have brought in eight Christian thinkers to kind of help us wrestle with this. We have three scientists, three theologians, a philosopher, a biblical studies scholar, from places like Wheaton, Southeastern Seminary, Calvin to come help us think about this issue from differing perspectives. And so I鈥檓 really hoping that ... Not everybody is going to agree, but I鈥檓 hoping for a robust conversation where both science can say something but also theology can say something through science where we can go back and forth. So, I think it would be interesting for anybody interested in theology but also I think it would be interesting for pastors who have the responsibility of helping shepherd their flocks into discerning views of science to come see experts in this area, to ask questions, to sit down and eat lunch and dinner and ask questions, to help them see what is going on in this conversation so they can use that skill when they go back to their churches to help guide people into a good, healthy, relationship with science. Not too much, not too strong in terms of expecting science to [deliver 00:20:10] but not too underplay what science can give us as a gift from God. So, I would encourage anybody who is interested to register. The early bird rate is December 15th. You get an early bird rate. It鈥檚 really a cheap registration. We鈥檙e going to offer three meals. It鈥檚 going to be great. And then the closing of registration is January 7th. So, if that is something you鈥檙e interested in, I would encourage you to look at Beeson Divinity鈥檚 social media channels, because that will be a good place to find the link to register. >>Doug Sweeney: Josh, one thing we like to do for our listeners on a pretty regular basis is just shine a light on the way God is at work redemptively at Beeson Divinity School, and the ways in which God has used people who are part of our larger Beeson family as part of his redeeming work in the world. So, I want to ask you ... Obviously, you鈥檝e gone on to bigger and better things. Beeson isn鈥檛 the only school you鈥檝e gone to, but it is one school you鈥檝e gone to. We鈥檙e proud to say you鈥檙e one of our alums. Tell our listeners a little bit about how God used your time here at the seminary in your career, in your family life, in your church life. >>Dr. Reeves: My time at Beeson was so influential in my life in terms of kind of general orientation towards my academic journey. So, I feel very grateful for my time here and the people and the professors I got to know. I mean, there鈥檚 a couple of things that I feel like I take away that have guided me through my academic journey. I think the first thing that Beeson offered was kind of an ethos to think with the tradition rather than being against the tradition. I think a lot of people that I run into in theology and science, their inclination is to critique the tradition without first thinking with it. And so I really appreciate the historically grounded view of church history and church theology that really kind of set my intuitions about how to think about these problems. We need to first think with the tradition before we want to tinker with any of the problem in light of ... Tinker with the tradition in light of the problems that we face. Another thing I really took away was kind of the balance of faith seeking understanding. I think sometimes I鈥檝e seen people when they study science they often ... There鈥檚 really good powerful knowledge that you can get from science but sometimes they I think are a little bit over confident in the ability to stretch that knowledge to cover all the daily experiences that we encounter in everyday reality. So, I feel like one of the things that Beeson grounded me on was kind of the balance of faith and reason. It鈥檚 always faith seeking understanding. If it鈥檚 too much on the understanding side then you鈥檙e not going to respect the limits of science. There鈥檚 so many questions that I think science can鈥檛 really answer. If you go too much on the faith side then you鈥檙e not sure which of the theological beliefs should I accept. If you鈥檙e just faith alone. So, the balance of faith and reason is really kind of been a guiding intuition that I took from Beeson. And then the last thing, I would say, that Beeson really shaped in me was the connection of worship with study. I think oftentimes in my theological journey I鈥檝e seen people who think because you study theology all day that it鈥檚 somehow a substitute for your personal spiritual development. And I realized here when you worship together and then go to classroom that combination of realizing that worship comes first, there鈥檚 a primacy to devotion and to being a Christ follower. The questions are important. Maybe not to being a Christian, but to giving an answer for why you鈥檙e a Christian. But I think the primacy of worship has been really influential in terms of my journey through different theological programs. >>Kristen Padilla: Dr. Reeves, we always like to end these podcasts by asking our guests what the Lord has been doing in their lives and teaching them these days as a word of encouragement to our listeners. We鈥檙e in the season of Advent and so I wonder if you can share with us what God has been teaching you? Maybe it鈥檚 related to Advent. It doesn鈥檛 have to be, but what has God been doing in your life? >>Dr. Reeves: Well, when you asked me to come on the podcast, this was the first question I thought of because I鈥檝e been a long time listener to this podcast. So, I鈥檝e heard many people answer this question over the years. I think what God has been showing me has been related to my season of my life, which maybe I knew but until you experience it, it鈥檚 a little bit hard to put into words. So, I think a lot of my prayer life and my search and my prayers to God in my first 20-30 years, in my 20鈥檚 and my 30鈥檚 was, 鈥淕od, where am I going? What do you want me to do? What kind of career? What about family? What about where should we live?鈥 All those sorts of questions. And as I approached ... I鈥檓 45 now, I鈥檓 middle aged. And a lot of those questions in my life have been settled, but then I see ... I think I鈥檓 over halfway of my life at this point. And I see my children are about to go to college. I鈥檝e had three surgeries in the last year. I can feel the age coming. And it鈥檚 just a different stage of your life. I think oftentimes you can know it intellectually that age is coming and age is something, but when you actually experience it, you鈥檙e natural desire is to want to hold onto things as much as possible. And so I think the lesson I鈥檝e been really thinking about in the last year and praying about and kind of wrestling and talking with God about has to do with how do you appreciate the gifts that God has given you without holding on too tightly to them? Because I feel like the natural self wants to hold on pretty tightly to earthly things. No matter how much your cognitive, your intellectual side tells you you should just let it go, but it鈥檚 hard to let go sometimes. That鈥檚 been a learning process over the last year, which I鈥檝e been grateful for. I think the times in my life that I鈥檝e grown most spiritually have been the times where you鈥檙e encountering these struggles and that鈥檚 been I think the struggle over the last year or two. >>Doug Sweeney: Thanks, Josh. That鈥檚 a good word and we鈥檙e really grateful for this gift of time. Thanks for being with us on the show today. Listeners, you have been hearing Dr. Josh Reeves. He is a professor here at 色虎视频 in science and religion. He teaches in our biblical and theological studies department. We are proud to say he is a Beeson alumni. He鈥檚 the author of a bunch of things, but the thing we want to commend to you today is his new book called, 鈥淩edeeming Expertise: Scientific Trust and the Future of the Church.鈥 Published by Baylor University Press. And we also want to remind you we have a conference that Josh is spearheading and some of us in divinity are helping out within a small way as well. It鈥檚 coming up next month, January 13-15. It鈥檚 called, 鈥淎lone in the Cosmos: Theological Anthropology for a Scientific Age.鈥 You are warmly invited to the conference and if you do want to come, please register at BeesonDivnity.com/events where you鈥檒l find all the information you need. Thank you for being with us. We love you. Hope you鈥檙e having a wonderful Christmas season. Goodbye for now. >>Kristen Padilla: You鈥檝e been listening to the Beeson podcast. Our theme music is written and performed by Advent Birmingham of the Cathedral Church of the Advent in Birmingham, Alabama. Our engineer is Rob Willis. Our announcer is Mike Pasquarello. Our co-hosts are Doug Sweeney and, myself, Kristen Padilla. Please subscribe to the Beeson podcast at www.BeesonDivinity.com/podcast or on iTunes.